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   The Mandalorian Crisis Forum Index » Suggestions
 PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 12:32 pm Reply with quote  
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  Malak
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Joined: 14 Feb 2007
Posts: 295
Location: At Revan's side

I can't get the bloody thing to sign in! :p

And five points of damage is five points whether it's from a light turbolaser battery or a shoe at transluminal speeds. >_>


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 PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 12:33 pm Reply with quote  
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  Danis Valaerum

Joined: 04 Mar 2007
Posts: 45

What sort of firepower doesn't matter. I want to know why a ship that costs 12 times as much as a Hammerhead is less than 3 times as powerful Razz
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 PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 12:37 pm Reply with quote  
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  Malak
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Joined: 14 Feb 2007
Posts: 295
Location: At Revan's side

Well, since I'm responsible for canon specs... I can take care of it with GM permission. :p

Although, the Courageous is an outdated ship by this year.


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 PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 2:36 pm Reply with quote  
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  Isaac Gallien

Joined: 13 Aug 2007
Posts: 193

So is everything, this being the Republic...
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 PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 4:13 pm Reply with quote  
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  Mandalore the Ultimate

Joined: 27 Jul 2007
Posts: 89

Well, the Mando's are using revised fifty-year-old and possibly more designs, but then again we don't run ours off assembly lines.
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Last edited by Mandalore the Ultimate on Fri Aug 31, 2007 4:15 pm; edited 1 time in total


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 PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 10:22 pm Reply with quote  
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  Talda Scytis

Joined: 16 Aug 2007
Posts: 11

The problem is I have created a dedicated fleet commander that would have been promoted to the position of fleet commander through tactical prowess and barely rivaled expertise (As is the case with all Mandalorian command structures).

I need to know my ships so I can create formations, and create actual lively roleplay as opposed to the "Roll 2D4+1" system that seems to be the case. If that is the way battles are to be engaged, then it becomes solely about numbers and luck, and any able-bodied commander can tell you that, while there is a certain amount of luck involved, tactics depend very much on the situation. After all. Wellington didn't beat Napoleon at Waterloo because of a lucky dice roll alone.

If this game becomes solely about numbers, and doesn't pay attention to fleet formations and other statistical data then I'll be sorely tempted to throw in the sponge right now.


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 PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 11:03 pm Reply with quote  
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  Malak
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Joined: 14 Feb 2007
Posts: 295
Location: At Revan's side

...It's not about numbers... and it does use formations. Jeez, doesn't anyone read what Kira said about the battlesystem? :p


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 PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 1:50 am Reply with quote  
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  Kira Daast
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Joined: 14 Feb 2007
Posts: 128

Quote:
I need to know my ships so I can create formations, and create actual lively roleplay as opposed to the "Roll 2D4+1" system that seems to be the case. If that is the way battles are to be engaged, then it becomes solely about numbers and luck, and any able-bodied commander can tell you that, while there is a certain amount of luck involved, tactics depend very much on the situation. After all. Wellington didn't beat Napoleon at Waterloo because of a lucky dice roll alone.


First of all, don't tell me that's there no room for RPing in my system, because that's simply not true. Secondly, if you want to know everything about your ships as your character, then go for it. I'm not stopping you in any way. I just see no reason to have to come up with stats for every little detail of the ship in OOC. It'd be unecessary (and before you yell back at me, keep reading, I have a suggestion for it). And don't worry about being exactly correct as far as ship blueprints go either. If you're RPing and have to make something technical up, do it, as long as it's reasonable. A lot of these ships aren't explored very much, so you can take a fair bit of liberty with them.

I dunno what you think the battle system is, but just to clarify, formations and strategies are VERY important to it, and there's lots of room for roleplaying within it as well. However, I also realize I haven't really gone into great detail about it, but I'll try to help you understand it. The system is heavily based off of the system that the Warhammer games operate, which invovles a lot of strategy. Granted, there's some dice rolling and luck involved, but it's not the basis of the system. You can win if you're outnumbered, you just need to be smart about it. Ships are grouped into task forces and fighter groups, but are still moved into positions by the players, so you can pull some pretty tricky moves.

If what you mean by formations is regarding formations of ships within each task force, well, here's my take on it. One of the problems I think a lot of you people have is that you think all the NPCs commanding your ships are retards and can't carry out orders themselves, so you need to directly take control of what they do. The way I see it, however, is that these people are in command for a reason. They KNOW to be in a certain formation to protect themselves or for maximum firepower or whatever according to your orders. Does it mean you have to tell them to get into "Super-Duper Diamond Delta Five-and-a-Half" formation? No. You tell them to attack someone, and we assume they move into the best possible formation for carrying this out.

This benefits both the admin and the people in the battle, because we admin have less to worry about as far as numbers and the map goes, and you as a player have less to worry about when giving orders. Believe me, I want this system to be realistic. But I want it to be fun, too. And for that, you need to sacrifice a little realism for simplicity. If you can't deal with that, well, I'm sorry. Maybe you're in the wrong position.

On top of all that, I wanted to use a physical map for reference during the battle, so everyone could watch the battle play out, see what the enemy is doing, and see what they themselves are doing. Now, even with the current system, that's kind of a daunting task, because a lot can happen all at once. If we go into detail about which formations each task force and fighter group is in, then say goodbye to the battle-map, cause I'm not wasting my time working out every last detail on the map. It'll simply take too long, and I'd rather battles be resolved sooner than a week after they begin.

Finally, to end this part of the topic, Malak, don't say it's not about numbers, because they do play a part. It's not the focus, mind you, but we can't say that dice rolls and luck aren't involved. But for you critics of that, what's the problem, really? Unexpected things happen all the time, especially in battle, so I don't see what's so bad about having a "luck" factor. Besides, this is Star Wars. There's no such thing as luck. Razz


However. Don't yell at me yet. I'm still changing things about the system, since a lot of good points have been brought up. And here's what I'm thinking:

For all of you about different weapon systems and whatnot, I'm agreeing with you. I didn't really think that part through all too well when I designed it, I'll admit that. Some ships just don't have the systems that are effective against some other types of ships. So, to remedy this, I have this suggestion: How about assigning each ship two different attack ratings: One for use against capital ships and another for use against fighters and small ships (Thanks to Isaac for the suggestion). It's still simple, but still gives the differentiation between weapon types. Would that make you critics a little happier? Razz

Next, the subject of formations. How about this: We let commanders choose to put their task forces into one of three kinds of formations. Either default, offensive or defensive. The default formation doesn't affect the stats of your task force. The offensive formation increases the TF's attack rating, but also increases how much damage they take. The defensive stance decreases the TF's attack rating, but also decreases the amount of damage they take. You basically tell the TF which formation to take, and the NPC commanders (who are not retarded, remember), are assumed to go into the best formation possible, which would vary from ship to ship. That way, there's nothing that has to be added to the battle-map, and you still get your different formations.

Are my ideas simple? Yes. Too simple for you? Well, I'm sorry to say, but suck it up. May I point out on the main page, in the About section:

Quote:
The main focus is on character development, both custom and canon, and the progress of a unique storyline, but tactial simulations and battles also play an important role


Battles are secondary. Are they important to the game? Absolutely, but character development comes first. This is not a game about statistics. This is not a game about numbers and dice. Hell, my ideal system wouldn't even involve numbers. It'd be based off the good-sportsmanship and trust of players. But none of you faction leaders can look me in the eye and rightfully tell me you wouldn't abuse that system sooner or later. Razz


In short (of a VERY long post), this isn't an RPG about numbers, so try not to treat it as one. Numbers have a habit of sucking the fun out of an RPG. The first RPG I hosted back on SWGBH was proof of that. Razz

RP with your characters and try to have fun. Now, if you'll excuse me, I need sleep after writing all this crap.

(Talda, if it seems like I'm singling you out, I apologize, but your's was the most recent post. I'm trying to talk to all the critics out there, not just you. As for everyone else, if you actually read all that, kudos to you. If you didn't, please read my suggestions for the system at the very least so I don't have to repeat myself later.)
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 PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 2:17 am Reply with quote  
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  Danis Valaerum

Joined: 04 Mar 2007
Posts: 45

Quote:
You tell them to attack someone, and we assume they move into the best possible formation for carrying this out.


I love you.
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 PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 9:13 am Reply with quote  
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  Talda Scytis

Joined: 16 Aug 2007
Posts: 11

I am sorry if my post seemed as a personal attack against you - please be assured it is not my intent.

The problem I face in the assumption of the "best possible formation" is that it doesn't account for individuality of characters. To use movie examples, High Admiral Piett would not have used the same formation over Hoth as High Admiral Ozzel, because they have different personalities and different backgrounds.

Talda, as a Twi'Lek and a high-ranking member of Mandalorian fleet command, would have a very pervasive method of combat, using formations based on aesthetics is customary of the Twi, as opposed to the precise and linear formations of the Elom or the completely disorganized fleet structure of the Vaagari. This is not to say that one formation is not better than another, but the assumption of a "best formation" seems to be quite vague.

I ask that, if the two ranking fleet commanders are willing to roleplay a battle from start to finish but lack the numbers to do so, that the battlemaster make such factors a relevant part to the overall damage calculations. I don't know what the battlesystem is at the moment, and I won't press for it because I don't want to be later accused of manipulating it. However, I have also itched to pit my fleet abilities hand-to-hand against Malak.

These battles are an excellent developer of character, ESPECIALLY for the Mandalorians who are defined by the engagements they are a part of. I suppose my rant was less of an accusation and more of a fear that I would not be able to utilize the rather heavy part of my time that would be spent in battles, to develop my character as I like.

Again, I am sorry if I appeared aggressive or hostile towards any of the moderators, but when I fear I can't utilize my characters to their full capabilities I tend to get a little bit on edge >_<


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 PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 10:43 am Reply with quote  
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  Dezzi

Joined: 09 Aug 2007
Posts: 54

All hail Zara. A genius among us.

Thank you. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

That's all I got.

Amen.


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 PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 12:50 pm Reply with quote  
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  Kira Daast
Administrator

Joined: 14 Feb 2007
Posts: 128

Quote:
This is not to say that one formation is not better than another, but the assumption of a "best formation" seems to be quite vague.


When I said "best formation," I was generalizing. Do I really mean the BEST formation? Not really, it'd still heavily rely on what kinds of ships they are and who's commanding them.

To keep the numbers easy, I don't want to go into a lot of precise details about formations, but when dealing with IC stuff, don't feel confined by that. If you tell us in OOC that you went into an offensive formation, fine, we've got all the information we need. You can then make an IC post and describe exactly how the formation lays out, even if it's one you've just made up and is completely off the wall. We don't really mind how you organize the ships, as long as they're consistent with the offensive/defensive thing.

See what I mean?
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 PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 10:53 pm Reply with quote  
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  Talda Scytis

Joined: 16 Aug 2007
Posts: 11

I do see what you mean, and even if the only factor taken into account is level of work that goes into defining the formation, I will be happy. There was an issue on another forum I was a part of before it ended, that had a player simply giving numbers without roleplaying through the battle, and I found myself getting frustrated that my work and effort seemed not to matter. I realized, later, that I was mistaken... and probably should have realized that here.

Still, if it could at least be somewhat of a priority to get information on relative linear speeds, weapons on the six firing arcs, and overall basic shape of the craft I would very much appreciate it.


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 PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 4:11 am Reply with quote  
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  Danis Valaerum

Joined: 04 Mar 2007
Posts: 45

Four weapon arcs, more like. Since this is on a top-down map, not a 3D confusionfest.
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 PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:25 am Reply with quote  
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  Malak
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Joined: 14 Feb 2007
Posts: 295
Location: At Revan's side

Yes. :p Maybe when I learn C++, SWRPGs can have a universal 3D system. >_> Until then, you're playing Battleship with lasers. :p


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